So I have been thinking about all the discussions that were going on to do with heaven and hell. I love how everyone is so passionate about the topic. (I know...myself included). Whether the debate was believing in a more black and white hell, or not, everyone seemed to have their thoughts and ideas about it, and wanted the forum to voice those thoughts. Some more than others...hehe...we love you Ro! Which is great...you know me, I love a good debate! (Despite not really wanting Facebook to be the venue for that, *sigh*...oh well)
Anyway, I got to thinking about it even more, and chatting with a friend over Skype. And after much thought, and realization of my own particular passion and determination to believe, or hope for something that I cannot actually know for sure, I have come to the conclusion that in the long run, it doesn't actually matter too much.
Sure there are those of us who hope for a God who might be bigger and more gracious than we had originally thought, and will be able to change even the hardest of hearts, so that not a one will perish. But there are also those who have a more traditional belief in who will and who will not get in to heaven. And both of those lines of thinking are ok.
But the truth is that actually none of us can know for sure! As much as we passionately debate for what we hope for or determinedly believe in, none of us will know without a shadow of a doubt! Anything we think, about what happens after death, is actually only ever going to be speculation. Unless we have died ourselves and come back to tell everyone what happened, then we can't possibly know!
So what does this leave us with?
...Now?
There is nothing much more that we can do, except for what we do with our lives now.
To say who will or won't get to heaven is to already make a judgment about peoples hearts, and this is not our task. We are not here to judge, and therefore, all we can do is love people now, and live the best lives we can, now! Growing, maturing, learning, loving, accepting...now.
How many of us actually live in now?
How often are we looking forward to, hoping for, counting down the days till something coming up tomorrow, in the future? Me...often!
How much time do we spend simply thinking about now, and what we can do with this minute?
And of course there is nothing wrong with hoping, thinking about, and looking forward to the future, but in terms of heaven and hell...we can't ever be in complete control of what will happen, as we simply cannot ever know for sure, so therefor, all we can be in control of is our lives here and now.
And I know, for me, that right now, I have a long way to go in becoming a more whole, and less destructive human being. I know I can learn to love people more genuinely, not grump so much at Ben, treat everyone fairly, be less judgmental, be more honest, be less blunt, get rid of that sneaky foot-in-mouth disease that creeps to the surface every now and then, be less selfish, be more vulnerable...etc, etc, etc. And I reckon that is a whole lot to keep me busy for the next twenty years!
Hey Jo after much thinking these are my not too deep thoughts http://t.co/DYSKkMS
ReplyDeleteoops so that cutting and posting didn't work how about http://betweentheblackandwhite.blogspot.com/
ReplyDeleteHehe...yay!! love your thoughts hun!! I am still trying to figure out how to comment on yours!! I think, I ultimately think the same thing! As, you can probably tell from this post! xoxo
ReplyDeleteANd I'm still thinking - I agree! Live life the best you can, be true to yourselves & God & leave the rest up to Him. Some might call it a cop-out but for me, I find that those focused so much on the so-called salvation of others are spending too little time working on themselves. So rather than being a cop-out I think this kind of acceptance shows strength of charactor - it accepts that as people we don't have all the answers, but God does so do what you are really called to do - love as only God can love & pass judgment. He is flawless we are not. Hmmmm I think I like that. :)
ReplyDeleteRebecca, I totally agree that we don't spend enough time working on ourselves! And as much as it can come across as a cop-out, I know for me, that working on my own crap over the last 5 years or so has totally changed my relationships, with God and people, and for the better! And I know that if I am loving people better, then heaven or hell aside, that is going to have more influence in their lives than my trying to 'save' them. People don't want to be 'saved', they want to be loved! Well, as far as I am concerned anyway! :-)
ReplyDeleteI totally agree...we don't have, and can't have all the answers! We are not God...as much as we would like to think we do! And as you say, only God is flawless, so only He is able to pass judgment!! :-)
As I said on fb, I read the book, just say and I’ll let you know what I thought. However in regards to your post:
ReplyDelete“It doesn't actually matter too much.”
Surely it does matter.
Surely it matters that there are people/pastors and churches out there condemning the innocent, surely it matters that there are people who believe that no matter how ill-willed they are in this life, eternal life in heaven is still a certainty for them.
“Sure there are those of us who hope for a God who might be bigger and more gracious than we had originally thought, and will be able to change even the hardest of hearts, so that not a one will perish. But there are also those who have a more traditional belief in who will and who will not get in to heaven. And both of those lines of thinking are ok."
In my opinion a God who makes it so ‘not a one will perish’ is a smaller, less gracious God, one who forces Himself on us. God CAN melt even the hardest of hearts, and He does this here and now. However He also allows us to choose not to follow Him, He allows us to keep our hearts hard if we choose to do so. I don’t think you understand what a “more traditional belief” is, if it is that Christians go to heaven, everyone else goes to hell then NIETHER of these lines of thinking are ok.
“But the truth is that actually none of us can know for sure!”
ReplyDeleteWell that’s completely untrue…
“As much as we passionately debate for what we hope for or determinedly believe in, none of us will know without a shadow of a doubt! Anything we think, about what happens after death, is actually only ever going to be speculation.”
Again, not true.
“Unless we have died ourselves and come back to tell everyone what happened, then we can't possibly know!“
Really? Can’t possibly know? As if everything we know comes to us purely through experience?
Is there a heaven? – We won’t know until we die
Is murder wrong? – I don’t know I’ve never done that.
Did Jesus rise from the dead? – Don’t know I wasn’t there
Will Jesus come again? – We won’t know until it happens.
Does God even exist? – We won’t know until we die,
Or maybe we do know, perhaps God reveals the truth to us. In fact God did reveal the truth to us, Jesus Christ, who gave us the Holy Spirit to lead His church into the fullness of the truth. We can know things for certain, we can know that Jesus rose from the dead, know the difference between right and wrong, and we can know that our own decisions have eternal implications.
“To say who will or won't get to heaven is to already make a judgment about people’s hearts, and this is not our task.”
This is true, it is the task of Jesus. However to say “Jesus we don’t need you to judge either, we decided everyone makes it in to heaven, so don’t judge or shed your light on us”, is to forever remain in darkness.
“We are not here to judge, and therefore, all we can do is love people now, and live the best lives we can, now! Growing, maturing, learning, loving, accepting...now.”
Ok, your logic is lost on me.
If you had said:
1.) We are not here to judge
2.) People can only either judge or love others.
3.) Therefore all we can do is love.
I’d understand but you haven’t, you’ve simply gone from premise 1 and jumped to an invalid conclusion.
Having said that, sure: growing, maturing, learning, loving, accepting now is a good idea.
“How many of us actually live in now?”
Very very few of us.
And those that do – don’t even live in the here, but in some virtual fb land.
“And of course there is nothing wrong with hoping, thinking about, and looking forward to the future, but in terms of heaven and hell...we can't ever be in complete control of what will happen, as we simply cannot ever know for sure, so therefore, all we can be in control of is our lives here and now.”
We can’t be in complete control - that is why we need to fully rely on the love and forgiveness of God.
We can decide today to follow Jesus, and just like a marriage we can decide to make that decision a life-long one, one that will have eternal consequences. Unfortunately decisions of those who choose not to follow God also have eternal consequences.
If reading this book, has made you decide to become a better person now, then good, but don’t cut yourself short, aim for perfection. Some people say that the key to happiness is having low expectations, it’s not. It’s realising that anything is possible and God can fulfil all the desires of your heart, even as He calls us to be holy, as He is holy.
Ro,
ReplyDeleteThanks for commenting on my blog, rather than facebook, I appreciate it!
"In my opinion a God who makes it so ‘not a one will perish’ is a smaller, less gracious God, one who forces Himself on us. God CAN melt even the hardest of hearts, and He does this here and now. However He also allows us to choose not to follow Him, He allows us to keep our hearts hard if we choose to do so"
I don't know quite where you get this idea of God forcing himself on us from? I have never said that. I have also never said that people will not face consequences for their actions here on earth. If you have read the book, you will know that it definitely talks about having to pay for what we do here on earth. I totally believe this is necessary and just, and would not want to serve a God who was not these. This justice is not only for people who do hideous things, but for myself who is also far from perfect, and sin. I do not relate Gods love to being BIGGER than our small minds can comprehend, and being ABLE to melt all hearts, as being the same thing as God FORCING himself on us. I believe they are completely different.
I know that as a Catholic you do not believe that only Christians go to heaven, (Mum sent me the Caticisms, and where they address this issue, and I did not mind at all what they had to say, I thought it was quite balanced). I am referring to my church background, where that is definitely the preaching I grew up with and believed most of my life. This is not right at all, and completely condemning of the majority of the population. And as I say, it is NOT our place to judge. But the moment we assume who will or won't go to heaven, and make statements about this, we have already judged.
It IS actually true that we cannot know for sure what happens after we die. That is why it is called FAITH. If there was no element of being able to question, it would not be faith at all. What is faith, if not the believing in something that cannot be proven factually or physically? And this faith refers to all the examples you gave...did Jesus die on a cross...does God love us...I know plenty of people who do not believe this to be true, and can prove otherwise, according to themselves and their experiences. And people who believe in a different bible, the Quran, etc, and have their 'truths' according to that. Even Muslims believe in a Spirit to help them understand. It is because of this, we need faith to believe. Yes I believe there is an ultimate truth. I believe that to be Jesus. I cannot prove that to anyone else, to convince them of my truth, but it is faith that has me believe it. But more than that Jesus is who I believe to be the ultimate truth, I believe much else regarding that is left up to our interpretation. How else do you end up with so many millions of people all believing in the same person, but with completely different understandings of much surrounding this man?
ReplyDeleteI am sorry you misunderstood my conclusion. I am not using that as a cop-out, I am using it as a reason to focus on the importance of our lives now. And this is also specifically relevant to me, coming from a church background that was soley focussed on 'winning salvations', and 'the call on your life', etc. The only importance I ever felt on now, was to ensure I secured my place in the future, somewhere else. Or didn't miss my calling. This is not everyone's experience and so not all will interpret what I wrote in that way.
I am saying, that ultimately what matters NOW is loving God and loving people!! That is actually all we are capable of. I have faith, believe and hope that many many many more people will be in heaven, maybe all eventually, but being that the bible leaves interpretation open to varying beliefs on this matter, I do not think that should be the focus and importance of my life now. Ensuring I am growing and loving and maturing etc more and more each day is what I choose to focus on.
"If reading this book, has made you decide to become a better person now, then good, but don’t cut yourself short, aim for perfection. Some people say that the key to happiness is having low expectations, it’s not. It’s realising that anything is possible and God can fulfil all the desires of your heart, even as He calls us to be holy, as He is holy."
Reading this book has only confirmed that there are other people out there who have been questioning along the same lines as me. And that the bible does leave this interpretation of heaven and hell open. I am not cutting myself short by believing this, I am opening my life to so much more, and a much more loving, gracious God than I had ever dreamt. It is not about an end destination, getting away from earth and people who irritate me, but rather to continue always growing and maturing...and more than anything, loving. Cos I will never be holy, as God is holy, but I can try to love others and God as best I can. This is not low expectation, this is realistic, and accepting of my humanity and imperfections. In this way, I am no better than anyone else, and do not, and will not, set myself up on a pedestal, believing myself, and my belief in God to make me somehow better, or more knowledgeable than others.
I hope that clarifies your understanding of my thinking?
Thanks for responding in such detail!
ReplyDeleteIt mostly does clarify what you were thinking..
“What is faith, if not the believing in something that cannot be proven factually or physically?”
Faith is believing the testimony of a witness.
Faith can give us certainty. Jesus said He was the Son of God, if we have faith in Him, we can be certain that this is true.
“and can prove otherwise, according to themselves and their experiences”
It’s not proof then is it. What about the murder is wrong example?
“and have their 'truths' according to that”
If you believe in an ultimate truth why do you say that?
Objectively speaking there is only one truth, either The Bible is correct and Jesus rose from the dead or the Koran is correct and He didn’t. Or both are wrong, but You can’t have it both ways, they both can’t be true, and both can’t be proven.
"Cos I will never be holy, as God is holy, but I can try to love others and God as best I can"
See you are cutting yourself short, Jesus doesn’t ask us to love others as best we can, His new commandment is to love others “As I have loved you” He doesn’t ask us to ‘try’ and be good, but to “be perfect as my heavenly father is perfect.” And we must do this, and you can do this! That’s the good news, if not in this life, then the next. If we can’t why would God ask this of us? "With mere mortals this is impossible, but with God all things are possible."
You say it's "open to interpretation" and doesn't really matter, but what about people who believe the Koran?
ReplyDeleteIs that also ‘open’ to decide which 'bible' or holy book you want to follow, does it matter which one you follow?
Just because they believe in a spirit that helps them interpret 'scripture' does it make ours untrue? As I said above only one can be true, and in the same way either people are separated from God for eternity, or their not. God has given us a means to know right from wrong, and to distinguish between correct and incorrect interpretations.
Ro,
ReplyDeleteI am glad that it mostly clarified things for you! :-)
I do agree, faith is also believing the testimony of a witness. And that I can feel certain of this testimony. As I do. No question in my mind.
My point is that I cannot prove this to someone else. As they also, feel certain of what they believe, eg, The Qu'ran. And I do not believe it is my job to prove someone else wrong. I believe it is my job to simply love them, as Jesus did, unconditionally, and not because I am trying to convince them of my belief. If they want to know, I will happily discuss my beliefs with them, but not with a heart to prove something to them, but just cos they want to know about me, my beliefs, my experiences etc. I think the problem comes with the word 'prove'. Nowhere in the bible did Jesus ever ask us to 'prove' him to others.
As for the murder argument. Yes it is wrong, but it is not as black and white as that. What about cases of self-defense, or defense of your family? When one is left with the choice, either themselves or the person trying to harm them. I know the 'Christian' response is to sacrifice yourself. But I don't know if I could sit here, never having been in a position like that, and condemn someone for having chosen to defend themselves and their family. And tell them what they did was WRONG? Were it simply an easy case of 'evil man murders', 'good doesn't', we could simply say YES IT IS WRONG. But as I say, it is not that simple. Unfortunately, in the mess of today, it is not that black and white.
As for it being open to interpretation, and the whole issue around the Qu'ran, I would have to say that much of the bible and the Qu'ran are very similar. Their stories of Muhammad, parallel, or are identical of those we have of Jesus. When teaching Islam in schools over here I was surprised to find how similar they are.
ReplyDeleteI think that maybe much of the Qu'ran is true, they simply grew up not in Hebrew culture, and so have interpreted it slightly differently than us. I don't think that Muhammad is the same as Jesus, and from what I know about him, find him lacking in the love I know Jesus has. But in saying this, I also wonder if maybe our bible also is not 100% perfect. If it were would there be scriptures about woman not speaking, and covering their heads etc? Which is why I think that ultimately what matters most for us here on earth is loving God and loving people. There is too much inconsistency to be able to make blanket statements, other than to say, 'I know this to be true for myself, and this is what I believe to be the Truth'.
I think the murder example pretty much sums up our relationship with God: murder according to man is against the law so anyone who commits it needs to be punished. However, in the court of law, other mitigating factors may come into discussion in terms of finding whether the person is guilty beyond reasonable doubt and/or when it comes to finding an appropriate sentence. These things include self defense, provocation (until the Weatherston trial) & potentially the offender's state of mind/environment circumstances. A good court will weigh these things up and then decide what is the appropriate punishment - if at all. Murder is hardly ever black and white. And neither are we. We may know the law but being fundamentally flawed human beings we are bound to always break it - something which the pentacostal church implies only 'non christians' do. But we all full short of the grace of God because well, surprise surprise we are not God. So where Rob Bell comes in is that he questions this predominantly pentacostal christian belief that all non christian sinners go to hell. Which is great as from where I am standing, and by all accounts where Joe appears to be standing, who are we to judge a man's heart? How can we know? We can't. No one can. Only God. So really the only certainty we have is our faith - faith that Jesus was the last sacrifice, faith that God loves us, faith that there is a heaven and faith that God is a just God. And then we apply this faith to all the things we don't understand - the fact that some churches immortalise mere human beings for doing God's work (Mary, Paul etc), despite the bible appearing to call this kind of thing idolatry, the fact that most of the world worships something other than God, that there are millions of people who have had supernatural experiences and/or miracles yet attribute these things to something other than God, that bad things happen to good people seemingly more often than they happen to bad people etc. In terms of the Qu'ran vs the Bible - who says it has to be one or the other? Jews - who don't believe Jesus was/is the Son of God and are still waiting for their King to return, are apparently the chosen people - have guaranteed entry into heaven. How are Muslims different to this? The whole point of people like Rob Bell raising these issues is to try and put the spotlight on how quick we are to convert, prove & judge when really the most important is always love. Human beings as a rule have failed this test time and time again. In terms of being holy like God - not possible. We are not God. But for the grace of God we will always full short. This is why we need God. We can aim high but we will never be able to love the way God loves us. We can try to love unconditionally, but everyone always attaches some conditions at some point - because we are flawed. We are not capable of perfection. Only God is.
ReplyDeleteLOVE IT Rebecca!!!
ReplyDelete